I think it's an important question to answer, but the focus on the police shows that people don't understand incident command structures.
At a fire, the police are there as support for the fire department. They would normally be helping to evacuate people, but they are not in charge. The fire chief or senior fire officer on scene is the i…
I think it's an important question to answer, but the focus on the police shows that people don't understand incident command structures.
At a fire, the police are there as support for the fire department. They would normally be helping to evacuate people, but they are not in charge. The fire chief or senior fire officer on scene is the incident commander, and whomever is the senior police officer on scene would coordinate with the incident commander.
If the reporting is accurate, that the police were blocking the main street out of Lahaina during the fire, that's absolutely inconceivable to me, as a retired police officer. Any legitimate police response would've been the opposite: making sure vehicles fleeing the fire had a clear path and didn't have to stop, and assisting anyone who needed help to flee. Even if an order came over the radio telling police on scene to block the road and trap people in the fire, there's no way they would obey. Has anyone filed a FOIA request to get the dispatch tapes from the county?? All radio communication, both police and fire, is recorded.
The much bigger question, in my view, is "where was the fire department?" I see no evidence or reporting of the massive fire department response that would always happen (in previous times, at least). The first responders from the fire department would've been on scene within a few minutes of the first reports of the fire(s), and them reporting what they saw would've rapidly escalated the dispatch to a second and third alarm, which would've had several other fire stations responding to assist. From a quick look at an online map, I see 8 other fire stations within about 30 miles of Lahaina, in addition to the county fire station in Lahaina. Numerous of those other fire stations would've been dispatched to assist the Lahaina station. Where were they?? And why is the police chief/coroner/Las Vegas mass shooting lead investigator looking like the one in charge at all of the press conferences, when he wouldn't have been in charge of the fire response? Why isn't the sincere press there hunting down the fire commanders who were in charge, and getting some answers??
The photo is bizarre. I can understand the placement of the police car on the left that's blocking the main highway going toward the fire, as they would be stopping and warning people headed toward the fire. The police car that's blocking the single lane coming from the town center onto the highway should absolutely not be there. My first thought seeing that photo is that those officers were dispatched to block the lanes going toward the fire, and one idiot cop misunderstood the intent and blocked the wrong lane. That's the most likely scenario, unless there's real evidence to lead elsewhere. People want to believe that every cop is competent and knows exactly what they're doing, and that's just not true, especially now that competency isn't even one of the primary hiring criteria.
Dear Mr. Lamb, many thanks for your thoughtful and constructive comment. The blocking of Front Street is indeed a mysterious element of this puzzle, especially given that downtown Lahaina contained the highest density of dry, wooden buildings. I just got off the phone with a witness who was forced back into downtown Lahaina on the south side of town as well. He ultimately abandoned his car and jumped into the ocean. The downed power lines can be hazardous for people on foot, but not for people in cars with rubber tires. it's a very confusing state of affairs, but perhaps a FOIA request for the dispatch tapes could be revealing. Thanks again for taking the time to share you reflections! Best regards, John Leake
If there's credible witnesses who report being blocked from driving out of town at more than one location, then it has to be considered possible that the police actions were intentional, and it must be investigated more deeply. The more I think about that photo, the more I can't reconcile how those officers didn't see that they were causing a traffic backup and preventing escape from the fire. I can't imagine a situation where that action is defensible.
From what I've seen in the press so far, I think the absence of the fire chief at the press conferences is conspicuous, as they would've been the one in charge of the fire response. That's who I'd be looking to have a private chat with, or some other fire department officer who knows what happened. Also, typically in the US there's a county or city-level fire marshal who would be in charge of the fire investigation. I also have seen no sign of the fire marshal at press conferences, nor any sign of journalists tracking him down.
My instincts tell me that police chief is a mafia lieutenant, and he will not cooperate, and same with the mayor.
It seems inconceivable that in the US a police department could be involved in committing a massacre, and yet that's exactly what I found myself investigating as a human rights investigator for the UN in Bosnia. It does happen, and Americans have long been in denial.
I think it's an important question to answer, but the focus on the police shows that people don't understand incident command structures.
At a fire, the police are there as support for the fire department. They would normally be helping to evacuate people, but they are not in charge. The fire chief or senior fire officer on scene is the incident commander, and whomever is the senior police officer on scene would coordinate with the incident commander.
If the reporting is accurate, that the police were blocking the main street out of Lahaina during the fire, that's absolutely inconceivable to me, as a retired police officer. Any legitimate police response would've been the opposite: making sure vehicles fleeing the fire had a clear path and didn't have to stop, and assisting anyone who needed help to flee. Even if an order came over the radio telling police on scene to block the road and trap people in the fire, there's no way they would obey. Has anyone filed a FOIA request to get the dispatch tapes from the county?? All radio communication, both police and fire, is recorded.
The much bigger question, in my view, is "where was the fire department?" I see no evidence or reporting of the massive fire department response that would always happen (in previous times, at least). The first responders from the fire department would've been on scene within a few minutes of the first reports of the fire(s), and them reporting what they saw would've rapidly escalated the dispatch to a second and third alarm, which would've had several other fire stations responding to assist. From a quick look at an online map, I see 8 other fire stations within about 30 miles of Lahaina, in addition to the county fire station in Lahaina. Numerous of those other fire stations would've been dispatched to assist the Lahaina station. Where were they?? And why is the police chief/coroner/Las Vegas mass shooting lead investigator looking like the one in charge at all of the press conferences, when he wouldn't have been in charge of the fire response? Why isn't the sincere press there hunting down the fire commanders who were in charge, and getting some answers??
The photo is bizarre. I can understand the placement of the police car on the left that's blocking the main highway going toward the fire, as they would be stopping and warning people headed toward the fire. The police car that's blocking the single lane coming from the town center onto the highway should absolutely not be there. My first thought seeing that photo is that those officers were dispatched to block the lanes going toward the fire, and one idiot cop misunderstood the intent and blocked the wrong lane. That's the most likely scenario, unless there's real evidence to lead elsewhere. People want to believe that every cop is competent and knows exactly what they're doing, and that's just not true, especially now that competency isn't even one of the primary hiring criteria.
Dear Mr. Lamb, many thanks for your thoughtful and constructive comment. The blocking of Front Street is indeed a mysterious element of this puzzle, especially given that downtown Lahaina contained the highest density of dry, wooden buildings. I just got off the phone with a witness who was forced back into downtown Lahaina on the south side of town as well. He ultimately abandoned his car and jumped into the ocean. The downed power lines can be hazardous for people on foot, but not for people in cars with rubber tires. it's a very confusing state of affairs, but perhaps a FOIA request for the dispatch tapes could be revealing. Thanks again for taking the time to share you reflections! Best regards, John Leake
If there's credible witnesses who report being blocked from driving out of town at more than one location, then it has to be considered possible that the police actions were intentional, and it must be investigated more deeply. The more I think about that photo, the more I can't reconcile how those officers didn't see that they were causing a traffic backup and preventing escape from the fire. I can't imagine a situation where that action is defensible.
From what I've seen in the press so far, I think the absence of the fire chief at the press conferences is conspicuous, as they would've been the one in charge of the fire response. That's who I'd be looking to have a private chat with, or some other fire department officer who knows what happened. Also, typically in the US there's a county or city-level fire marshal who would be in charge of the fire investigation. I also have seen no sign of the fire marshal at press conferences, nor any sign of journalists tracking him down.
My instincts tell me that police chief is a mafia lieutenant, and he will not cooperate, and same with the mayor.
It seems inconceivable that in the US a police department could be involved in committing a massacre, and yet that's exactly what I found myself investigating as a human rights investigator for the UN in Bosnia. It does happen, and Americans have long been in denial.